Today host Holly Chen meets with Armen Avanessian. Armen is the Head Routesetter and Operations Manager at Threshold Climbing in Oklahoma. Armen is a USAC Level 3 Routesetter and his setting career has spanned the state of Oklahoma, where he’s worked as a desk staff member, routesetter, and now head routesetter and routesetting consultant. Coming up for Armen is the bouldering divisionals event at his home gym as well as his first time being the chief routesetter for a regionals event. Outside of slinging plastic, Armen is a route developer with several first ascents of boulders in the Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge up to V double digits. Armen began consulting for gyms earlier this year, helping routesetters and gym managers build their hold selection, design setting programs, and educate setters. Also, this year Armen has been trying to diversify his hobbies and has picked up the guitar after a long hiatus.
Holly and Armen’s chat gets pretty technical, but they start off with an explainer on why gyms and routesetters might need consulting. They also talk about how the hold selection for the opening set can determine the style of climbing in the gym, and what differentiates an old-school hold selection from a contemporary or modern one. Armen offers a lot of practical tips on making the best out of tight hold budgets. He and Holly dissect the pros and cons of various grading systems. They touch on routesetter education, communication, leadership, and the four IFSC style components, getting into a deep discussion on which moves fit into which style component.
Thank you Bold Climbing and RGP for your support!
And thank you Devin Dabney for your music!
Timestamps
00:00 – Intro
04:34 – Climbing Outside in Oklahoma
06:07 – Armen’s Work as a Consultant
07:37 – The Oklahoma Climbing Community
13:51 – A Boutique Space
15:11 – Modern vs. Old-School Holds
18:46 – Building a Modern Gym with a Tight Hold Budget
22:30 – Hold Orders for Boutique vs. Contemporary Gyms
24:11 – Average Hold Budgets
27:48 – Hold Themes and Colors
30:53 – Long-Term Effects of Hold Choice
33:47 – The Four IFSC Style Components
43:23 – Teaching a Team
50:39 – Armen’s Setting Bag
51:50 – Closing
Abridged Transcript
…Tell me a little bit about what Oklahoma outdoor climbing is like.
Closer to where I’m at, there’s the Wichita Wildlife Refuge, and that’s probably a place that a lot of people out of state might know about. A lot of old-school trad run-out stuff there and kind of a more developing boulder scene. But around Tulsa there are actually a lot of smaller bouldering crags too. So, there’s actually a decent history of climbing in Oklahoma. I forgot to mention Chandler Park in Tulsa; that’s the old, polished limestone crag with graffiti all over it and bottles broken on the ground and stuff…Oklahoma has more climbers than you might expect and it has more climbing than you might expect. So, it’s definitely not Colorado, but it’s pretty cool in some ways…
Can you tell me a little bit about what you do as a consultant and how that came about?
So, a gym is opening up in Tulsa named Gravity Bear. And they reached out to me because they know I have history in that area, and they wanted some help with the hold order and some other setting stuff. So, I kind of entered a new realm and started doing that.
When someone reaches out to you for help, you mentioned the hold order. What are some other things that they might ask about?…
Yeah, so in this situation that’s pretty accurate. It was somebody who is passionate about climbing and wants to build a gym but doesn’t necessarily have that routesetting knowledge. So, in this instance it was also trying to give feedback on what a routesetting program could look like, what a grade spread could look like. The feel of the gym could be the style of the setting and catering a hold order toward those things and those goals as well, and obviously taking into account the factors that they’re wanting to see, like what they’re wanting out of it, as well. So, in this case it was more of a boutique space, and kind of trying to build something more for that.
…Can you tell me a little bit about the Oklahoma climbing community? You talked about some outdoor areas. Is there a big outdoor scene? Are there a lot of indoor climbers, comp climbers or youth climbers? What’s it like?
I think it’s hard to compare directly when you don’t live somewhere else, but I bet the percentages are pretty similar, just the number of climbers is different. So, you’re going to have a pretty strong base of outdoor climbers who—at least in Oklahoma, or maybe just now—are getting more acquainted with competition-style climbing. But youth teams have been around for at least 10 years, somewhere around there. So, there’s definitely been some pretty strong youth competitors who have come out of Oklahoma. There are still a lot of outdoor climbers with an old-school mindset, but there are definitely a lot of people who are excited about what’s going on with newer types of setting and wanting to see that in the indoor space. Finding the balance to make both of those user groups happy is obviously important…
…I’m wondering if you’ve noticed any differences between what Oklahoma is like versus other places that you’ve set for, climbed at and experienced.
I would say in Oklahoma, there are probably a few reasons for this, but even just the difference between Tulsa and Oklahoma City is noticeable, in my opinion. When I first moved down here, I definitely noticed that the style that people wanted more of was different than what I was expecting from the Tulsa scene. Not to say that it’s a total difference, but in Oklahoma City, for instance, I noticed a lot more requests for really thin, crimpy climbs that were super static and closer to the style of the Refuge. Whereas in Tulsa you’re closer to Arkansas, which has a lot of bouldering and a lot of sport climbing. And the bouldering in Tulsa is also sandstone, which has more gymnastic movement usually. So, the movement there usually was a little bit more dynamic, and people requested that a little bit more instead of really slow, static, tension climbing. So, there’s an element of, “What’s the nearest rock climbing and what style does that have?”…
…You said that your friend wanted this boutique space of a gym. Can you describe that a little bit? And how does that concept differ from your average modern facility?
Usually, when you’re thinking of a boutique space, you’d envision probably a slightly smaller facility, usually just bouldering—almost always just bouldering—and then lower density for the number of climbs in the facility. You’re probably going to see climbs that are more intentionally catering toward aesthetics but also are going to lean a little bit more into maybe a skate style, or if you want to say an “electric style.” You’re going to see more of that, probably because it kind of caters toward putting the movement on the wall that people are also seeing when they’re watching events. And I think that’s part of what makes a boutique space have, besides a visual aesthetic, I guess I can say a “movement aesthetic” to it…That’s how I think of a boutique space.
…Can you tell us what differentiates a modern hold selection versus your average gym selection or even old-school hold selection?
…If you want to say an “old-school hold selection,” you’re going to see a lot of thinner holds for sure. You’re probably going to see a lot of crimps. The slopers you’re seeing are probably going to be maybe head-sized and really bad, maybe even polished. Whereas with a more contemporary feel, you’re going to have a mixture of the fiberglass that you’ve been seeing and some volumes along with those holds, probably mixing in some larger polyurethane holds as well. Whereas if you’re trying to skew toward very modern, most of your macros are going to be probably fiberglass macros. You’re going to have more volumes, and then you probably will have smaller holds, but they’ll be jibs that you’re putting on volumes to change the level in that way. You’re probably not going to see a lot of bolt-on holds that are tiny, and most of the bolt-on holds are going to be larger. Maybe the smallest ones are hanging around head-sized and it goes up from there. And probably most everything in that selection should be screw-on-ready, hopefully, or something that could be turned into a screw-on pretty easily, because you’re intending on stacking volumes a lot and putting holds on stacked volumes and probably jibbing as well…
…What are some general tips on building a modern hold selection on a tight budget? Most gyms have relatively tight budgets these days.
I think for me, when I was entering into this process, at first I was trying to think, “Okay, what’s the base layer? What is—besides the wall, of course, which is the base layer—what’s the next thing?” It’s the volumes. So, I tried to make sure to choose volumes that are going to have a lot of function to them besides just like, “Okay, it’s on the wall and I’ve put a hold on it.” Hopefully, you’re also thinking about your volumes being able to be used together. And I think if you choose a good selection of that as your base layer, you don’t have to buy as many holds. Granted, in this situation, if the gym is going to be catered a little bit more to a general audience, maybe you’re going to have higher density. But even in that case, if you’re going to approach it with having enough to build off of, you can use less holds. Even on a V0 or VB, if you have, let’s say, a volume that is cantered off one direction, where it’s way slopier on one side and it’s juggier on the other side, now you can have the easier climb use the positive facet, and you can have the harder climb use the less positive facet. So, being intentional with that.
Then the next step from there would be to choose your fiberglass selection. And I guess what I was thinking of in terms of percentages is if, let’s say you have $100,000 that you’re trying to spend, you should probably try to spend at least a third of that on volumes, at least a third of that on fiberglass, and then at least a third on polyurethane—try to make it pretty balanced. And if you’re going to take out of one of those spots to go somewhere else, maybe that could be the polyurethane, if you’re going to remove macros from there and move them elsewhere. So, trying to think of the bigger pieces that you can build around, because bigger holds also take up more space, they take up more moves. So, yes, they are more expensive and they do cost a lot; no one’s going to tell you they don’t. But if you have a base of those, you don’t have to use as many holds, ultimately, and they’re more exciting to use. So, from a perspective of having just, even if it’s not a boutique space, it’s just your standard gym, people are going to be more excited to go in and use holds that at least give them some reminiscent feel of like, “Oh, this is something that I’ve seen used.” Even if there’s two or three climbs on top of it, just being really mindful of how it’s all going to interact with each other.
…How would that percentage shift if you were a fully boutique space or a fully contemporary gym, with your average commercial sets and occasionally some comps?
Yeah, I think if it was a boutique space, it would probably shift more toward 40% for the volumes, 40% for the fiberglass, and then maybe 20% for the polyurethane. Whereas for the more contemporary space, it would probably shift in the opposite direction a little bit more; maybe not completely the same percentages, but it could be 40% is polyurethane. And maybe they’re going to skew a little bit further into the fiberglass and less into the volumes, just because in that situation, if you’re spending a little bit less on volumes to begin with, you’re probably not going to be building it out quite as much in what I described earlier.
And yeah, you’ll probably use more fiberglass to fill this base, but you still, I think, would want to have a decent base, somewhere around that 60 or 50% put into those volumes or fiberglass instead of, I guess for the boutique space, it’s going to be a lot closer to somewhere like 60 to 80%, depending on how much density you want to have. Obviously, the further you steep into that, the less boulders you’re probably going to have on the wall…
When we were chatting on the phone the other day, you mentioned using themes and hold colors. I’m wondering if you can dive into that and tell us why you’ve gone down that path before and what has worked and what has not worked about it.
So, that concept definitely has a little bit more strength in a space where there’s going to be lower density. At least the mindset for that is, if you’re going to have fewer climbs in the facility and maybe you’re getting less holds to start with, you’re probably not going to be able to represent everything in a color without maybe making some compromises. So instead of making those compromises, think of a theme for your color and maybe don’t stick to it so much that you’re affecting things negatively. Obviously, you always have to have room to be flexible. But for instance, one of the themes that I have used is like “wild card” or “big s***,” like one of the colors has a lot more “big s***” in it and it gives it a certain feel.
And then maybe one of the colors is modularity. So, maybe there are more jibs in there, maybe there are more things that can stack on top of each other in there. And that’s not to say that you’re not still trying to strive for balance and hold types; you are hopefully still trying to get a decent balance of jugs and slopers and crimps. But maybe in one color you’re not balancing in pinches as much. Maybe one color feels more like the pinchy color. The themes can be basic or they can be a little bit more advanced, depending on what you’re thinking. And maybe even the theme is just we got only Cheeta holds in this color and then we got another brand in this color. It can be simple or it can be complex…
…Can you enlighten us all on the four style components of the IFSC?
There’s “coordination boulders” and there’s “electric boulders,” which are coordination boulders but they’re power coordination; they gave it its own distinction. And then there’s “power boulders,” and then there’s what they would call “balance.” So, you’re thinking of, in my mind, the coordination and the electric are what people are typically going to think of as comp style, whereas the balance and power aspects are what people are typically going to associate more with a rock climbing style.
There is the RIC scale, and that’s one way to look at having diversity of movement in a facility. But when you think about the RIC scale, it’s just telling you how the climb feels. It’s telling you how much risk or intensity or complexity it has, but it’s not necessarily telling you what the style of the climb is. Just because something has a five in risk on the RIC scale doesn’t necessarily tell you which one of those sections it’s going to fit into. So, I’ve used this concept when chiefing comps and it’s something that I actually found to be the best result for getting the most diversity instead of talking about RIC scale elements…
…What do you keep in your setting bag that’s not a tool? What do you always have in there?
I have this really old Voodoo crimp that is from New Heights. It’s that super old, dual-tex piece-of-crap hold. It’s super polished, but it’s my security blanket. I always have it in there. I like to just pull it out and grab it sometimes and just put my fingers in the crimp. I’ve had a couple of holds like that…
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